I Feel Dirty (In A Bad Way)
So, I made the mistake of becoming involved with a ridiculous blog thread about whether date rape is a myth. (It's not.) Again, I don't want to promote these people, so I won't.
Instead of reiterating the million posts I was foolish and angry enough to post, I will instead log an IM conversation I had with Boomy on this topic.
Boomy: hey dangerous utopian dreamer...what on earth have you gotten yourself into?
Joolya: oy, i have fallen into a quicksand trap of commentating with morons
Joolya: help me!!!
Boomy: oh oy voy voy
Boomy: [Quotes from evil blog] Joolya - That word 'misogynist' you keep using, I do not think it means what you think it means.
Misogyny implies that I actively harbor feelings of ill-will towards women. I do not. I adore women. What I harbor is a deep distrust for women. While I am willing to have women as friends, I am not able to trust them to be any closer than that. I have had entirely too many women do things with the sole intent of hurting me personally or professionally to trust them in any intimate matter.
Boomy: oh my dear lord
Joolya: i know, dude. i am about to quit this town.
Joolya: seeing as i actually do have work to do
Boomy: okay so i think that might actually be your best idea. it's like you're in one flew over the cuckoos nest here.
Joolya: i know, yo
Boomy: i still have to read the original post
Joolya: this vox guy is a nutjob
Boomy: you have become some kind of straw man to a bunch of pathetic assholes.
Boomy: more in a second, don't sign off yet...
Joolya: eek! i will retire as straw person. although, really, they've gone easy on me compared to others in the threads.
Joolya: i feel dirty that i have participated in this
Boomy: all other ridiculousness aside, there are some basic facts about rape that are being totally ignored here. this is *such* a classic case of men interpreting facts in a manner that shows they believe that women should be second or third class citizens. or as peggy orenstein wrote, men interpret equality as a loss. on the one hand, i wonder if you could fight them with statistics. (ie, all the one-in-ten rapes brought to trial en in acquittal, etc)
Joolya: i know, dude, and they won't admit it.
Joolya: they start to admit their basic problem and then back away and be like, that's not what i meant! like brian posts one comment that is totally rational, and then the next comment is all "gender feminists are out to get me"
Joolya: whatever. i totally win. have extricated self.
Joolya: it's just - all this "men are this" "women are that" thing is so fucking depressing. i blame the patriarchy.
Joolya: it's so divisive! it's not cool at all.
Boomy: on the other hand, you could send an email to twisty or bitchphd and ask for help...
Boomy: still though. i think this is a dumb circlejerk of a group and you would be sullying yourself by dealing with them more and more
Joolya: i agree
Boomy: no contact? no more checking what they are saying or trying to engage with them? imagine them all as totally unfuckable comic store simpsons guys and ignore them?
Joolya: well, i am reading final thoughts. they totally are comic book store guys. although it is slightly mean of us to so categorize, we are probably correct in our assessment.
Boomy: there is a whole group of men like this who have crazy misogynist support groups for divorce settlements and child support.
Joolya: (grr i keep wanting to respond but it totally won't do any good.)
Joolya: yeah, there is a whole demographic of men who feel very hard done by. probably some of them are. but yeah. it's like the anti-affirmative action crowd who are fishes that don't notice the water of privilege in which they swim. (I am quoting someone, but i forget who.)
Boomy: same arguments as date rape people, with the whole if one-woman-could-use-it-to-get-back-at-some-guy then all agreements must be fundamentally anti-man, screwing up men's lives, stealing from them, etc
Joolya: right, but then they're like, "that's not what i said!"
Boomy: right. because they are assholes, who are not going to give up any of their cyber ground to some cyber girl who speaks up
Joolya: and then - at the same time - like my boy Bri - they're like, how come those feminazis are so anti-man? just because someone got raped once?
Boomy: it's funny that he said springy had never heard of marx. i laughed out loud
Joolya: i felt like i was getting into the cracks for a second there
Joolya: hahahaha. that was funny
Joolya: [Quotes from evil blog thread] The partial responsibility point is simply an observation that stupid behavior often results in one getting hurt. A girl who never goes to frat parties, will never be raped at a frat party. I can piss in the wind all day long about how I (A white male) should be able to strut around the projects with a white hood on, and not be attacked... but it doesn't change the fact that I would be attacked. Everyone would say that it was partially my fault for being stupid, and plenty would def end the attackers. Claiming that rape is different from this is simply incorrect.
Joolya: that was my friend "nate"
Joolya: reiterating
Joolya: just for a change
Joolya: this is also funny:
Joolya: [Quotes from evil blog thread] "Ah. Different *contexts* of the word no. Well, Scintan, we have many ways of using intonation and body language to make points, this is true. If at some point someone says a version of "no" that is ambiguous, then the other person ought to ask them to clear it up for them ("No you don't want me to stick my penis in your vagina _yet_ or _at all_?").
Joolya 11.29.05 - 1:56 pm #"
Ok, you're either a virgin or you don't have a solid grasp on human interaction, possibly both. If you think that normal people stopping to ask that question doesn't kill the mood of the situation and lead to problems, you've got no business of even discussing this topic. Furhermore, the push and pull is part of the courtship ritual. This is a problem with the feminists. They wish to rebel against the very nature of our beings and can't understand why people would oppose them.
Joolya: i like, also, how VD was all, the nature of men is to rape. except - but - uh - wait
Boomy: have you seen the new twisty post?
Boomy: "Some women" quoth a sympathetic Mexican government official for "women's issues," "believe violence is their destiny."It thoroughly chaps the Twisty hide that, although it's men who are, you know, perpetrating it, violence is still seen as a women's issue, as the responsibility of women . . .
Joolya: fucking fucker fucks. and they WONDER why women get cross about the door thing
Boomy:ha! he called you a virgin!
Joolya: that is super funny
Boomy: he was all "virgin! bviirgin! if you're a feminist than it must be that no one will have sex with you!"
Joolya: that is why i only fuck other feminists
Joolya: VD (who seems not to have noticed that his initials stand for venereal disease) non-sequits the following:
Joolya: [Quotes from evil blog thread] Joolya wrote: “You are a sick, sick man, VD. This is not a case of breach of contract. It's really disturbing that you seem to view sex and relationships in this manner. If you consented to, I don't know, drive someone home but on the way to their house they started vandalizing your car or pissing you off, would you then say that you had no right to kick them our of your car?”
Yawn. Again with the inability to distinguish between legality and morality. No wonder you can't distinguish between rape and sex. Your analogy is a poor one. If I consented to drive you home, but I then stop in the middle of nowhere and tell you to get out simply because I don't feel like driving you anymore, I would certainly think that I have done you wrong. I haven't broken any laws, and certainly the right thing to do would be to get out of the car and go, but there is no shortage of individuals who would simply refuse to get out of the car, without the aforementioned shrieking and defecating.
Joolya: My point was that the rapist is the guy who won't leave the car which is then trespassing and therefor a crime - I can't actually tell what his point is in response. Can you?
Boomy: yeah. so he would kind of be being a bad host for kicking his passenger out of the car midway through, but still within his legal rights, and well, the passenger would then have to leave
Boomy: yeah i read that whole exchange
Boomy: i liked the pooping in your car while you sit there and watch analogy
Joolya: but then he seems to agree with me?
Boomy: and the rider would be understood for just staying in the car until he was home
Joolya: sure, which is the weakness of my analogy.
Boomy: no it's not. it was a fine analogy
Joolya: i didn't mean to imply that the woman who kicks the dick out is in the wrong
Boomy: it's just his trying to say that the kicker-outer from cars and vaginas is to blame for the actions of the kicked
Joolya: legally, the rider has no right to the ride.
Joolya: right. but he was like, the dick has the legal right (not the moral right) to remain in the vagina, whereas the rider has the moral (not the legal) right to stay in the car. so he is wrong and agrees with me about the car but not the vagina. because he is an asshole.
Boomy: yeah these people are assholes
Boomy: totally
Boomy: how scary is "scintan"?
Boomy: he is definitely mixing metaphors.
Boomy: if you are going to say: "occasionally there are cases where women are responsible for the hurt feelings of men whom they have asked to refrain from or cease fucking them" then fine.
Boomy: if you are going to say that they are legally responsible for the crime that results from the man's actions...
Boomy: another story
Boomy: i wonder how they feel about man-on-man rape
Boomy: hey you know what you should do?
Joolya: what?
Boomy: you totally need to write a rebuttal on YOUR blog
Joolya: yeah.
Joolya: so there, venereal disease
Boomy: a well reasoned chat about how you got pulled in to this ridiculous rabbit warren
Boomy: and what you found there
Boomy: and what right-minded people should do in response
Joolya: good idea. and how to avoid being trapped like that again. e.g. don't walk home alone after dark or wear tight clothes.
Boomy: guys in the divorced mens support groups though
Boomy: makes vox look progressive
Joolya: wow. maybe i don't want to!!!
Boomy: my friends who are divorce laywers get contacts from them a lot. they are kind of like the male-bonding wilderness crazies
Boomy: and the overwhelming message is that women are worthless liars
Joolya: well, shit, aren't they?
Joolya: according to vox, brian, scintan, and possibly nate we are!
Joolya: what do your friends think of them?
Boomy: they HATE them
Boomy: because they do have a teeny tiny kernal of truth to them
Joolya: i'm sure some of them do. there's a lot of nasty people in the world and some of them are women
Boomy: (ie, protective laws on the books in PA and in many states do not treat men and women equally)
Boomy: on the other hand, MEN AND WOMEN are NOT in EQUAL economic situations. EVER
Boomy: so this relatively tiny, bound issue in some laws rarely departs from the path the judges and lawyers would follow anyway
Joolya: talk about culture of victimhood, though, seriously.
Joolya: here is the ironic thing:
Joolya: these guys on this blog are all, Victimhood! Victimhood! WE MEN are the actual victims of your victimhood! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! GOTCHA VOX ET AL!
Joolya: and it's so only recently that women are being given equal treatment under the law anyway. they forget this
Joolya: it's so fucked up. let's play the game where we find-and-replace "men" with "chinese" and "women" with "korean"
Joolya: or whatever
Boomy: and there is nothing more dangerous than when those in power can claim minority, or victim, status
Joolya: LIKE THE CHRISTIAN RIGHT!!!!!!!
Boomy: exactly.
Joolya: dude, we have figured it all out
Boomy: or "christian libertarians"
Joolya: the ickiest
Boomy: or whatever vox claims to be
Joolya: gun totin Xtreme Xtians
Joolya: couldn't resist one last comment:
Joolya: VD:Let me paraphrase your arguments here.
The dick has the legal right (but not the moral right) to remain in the vagina, whereas the rider has the moral (but not the legal right) right to stay in the car. Whereas I maintain that both dick and passenger are legally obliged to exit car and vagina when requested to do so by the car or vagina owner or else they are (legally) trespassing.I
n no way did I mean to imply by my analogy that the dick who was asked to leave was hard done by.
You are such a doofus.
Joolya: i'm seriously done now. done done done
Joolya: seriously
Boomy: cut it off.
Joolya: "and there is nothing more dangerous than when those in power can claim minority, or victim, status" that was very succinctly put.
Boomy: thanks :)
Boomy: be like the indian guy with the pillow at the end of cuckoos nest
Joolya: i have, i have
Joolya: can i throw a sink out the window? please?
Boomy: by all means
Instead of reiterating the million posts I was foolish and angry enough to post, I will instead log an IM conversation I had with Boomy on this topic.
Boomy: hey dangerous utopian dreamer...what on earth have you gotten yourself into?
Joolya: oy, i have fallen into a quicksand trap of commentating with morons
Joolya: help me!!!
Boomy: oh oy voy voy
Boomy: [Quotes from evil blog] Joolya - That word 'misogynist' you keep using, I do not think it means what you think it means.
Misogyny implies that I actively harbor feelings of ill-will towards women. I do not. I adore women. What I harbor is a deep distrust for women. While I am willing to have women as friends, I am not able to trust them to be any closer than that. I have had entirely too many women do things with the sole intent of hurting me personally or professionally to trust them in any intimate matter.
Boomy: oh my dear lord
Joolya: i know, dude. i am about to quit this town.
Joolya: seeing as i actually do have work to do
Boomy: okay so i think that might actually be your best idea. it's like you're in one flew over the cuckoos nest here.
Joolya: i know, yo
Boomy: i still have to read the original post
Joolya: this vox guy is a nutjob
Boomy: you have become some kind of straw man to a bunch of pathetic assholes.
Boomy: more in a second, don't sign off yet...
Joolya: eek! i will retire as straw person. although, really, they've gone easy on me compared to others in the threads.
Joolya: i feel dirty that i have participated in this
Boomy: all other ridiculousness aside, there are some basic facts about rape that are being totally ignored here. this is *such* a classic case of men interpreting facts in a manner that shows they believe that women should be second or third class citizens. or as peggy orenstein wrote, men interpret equality as a loss. on the one hand, i wonder if you could fight them with statistics. (ie, all the one-in-ten rapes brought to trial en in acquittal, etc)
Joolya: i know, dude, and they won't admit it.
Joolya: they start to admit their basic problem and then back away and be like, that's not what i meant! like brian posts one comment that is totally rational, and then the next comment is all "gender feminists are out to get me"
Joolya: whatever. i totally win. have extricated self.
Joolya: it's just - all this "men are this" "women are that" thing is so fucking depressing. i blame the patriarchy.
Joolya: it's so divisive! it's not cool at all.
Boomy: on the other hand, you could send an email to twisty or bitchphd and ask for help...
Boomy: still though. i think this is a dumb circlejerk of a group and you would be sullying yourself by dealing with them more and more
Joolya: i agree
Boomy: no contact? no more checking what they are saying or trying to engage with them? imagine them all as totally unfuckable comic store simpsons guys and ignore them?
Joolya: well, i am reading final thoughts. they totally are comic book store guys. although it is slightly mean of us to so categorize, we are probably correct in our assessment.
Boomy: there is a whole group of men like this who have crazy misogynist support groups for divorce settlements and child support.
Joolya: (grr i keep wanting to respond but it totally won't do any good.)
Joolya: yeah, there is a whole demographic of men who feel very hard done by. probably some of them are. but yeah. it's like the anti-affirmative action crowd who are fishes that don't notice the water of privilege in which they swim. (I am quoting someone, but i forget who.)
Boomy: same arguments as date rape people, with the whole if one-woman-could-use-it-to-get-back-at-some-guy then all agreements must be fundamentally anti-man, screwing up men's lives, stealing from them, etc
Joolya: right, but then they're like, "that's not what i said!"
Boomy: right. because they are assholes, who are not going to give up any of their cyber ground to some cyber girl who speaks up
Joolya: and then - at the same time - like my boy Bri - they're like, how come those feminazis are so anti-man? just because someone got raped once?
Boomy: it's funny that he said springy had never heard of marx. i laughed out loud
Joolya: i felt like i was getting into the cracks for a second there
Joolya: hahahaha. that was funny
Joolya: [Quotes from evil blog thread] The partial responsibility point is simply an observation that stupid behavior often results in one getting hurt. A girl who never goes to frat parties, will never be raped at a frat party. I can piss in the wind all day long about how I (A white male) should be able to strut around the projects with a white hood on, and not be attacked... but it doesn't change the fact that I would be attacked. Everyone would say that it was partially my fault for being stupid, and plenty would def end the attackers. Claiming that rape is different from this is simply incorrect.
Joolya: that was my friend "nate"
Joolya: reiterating
Joolya: just for a change
Joolya: this is also funny:
Joolya: [Quotes from evil blog thread] "Ah. Different *contexts* of the word no. Well, Scintan, we have many ways of using intonation and body language to make points, this is true. If at some point someone says a version of "no" that is ambiguous, then the other person ought to ask them to clear it up for them ("No you don't want me to stick my penis in your vagina _yet_ or _at all_?").
Joolya 11.29.05 - 1:56 pm #"
Ok, you're either a virgin or you don't have a solid grasp on human interaction, possibly both. If you think that normal people stopping to ask that question doesn't kill the mood of the situation and lead to problems, you've got no business of even discussing this topic. Furhermore, the push and pull is part of the courtship ritual. This is a problem with the feminists. They wish to rebel against the very nature of our beings and can't understand why people would oppose them.
Joolya: i like, also, how VD was all, the nature of men is to rape. except - but - uh - wait
Boomy: have you seen the new twisty post?
Boomy: "Some women" quoth a sympathetic Mexican government official for "women's issues," "believe violence is their destiny."It thoroughly chaps the Twisty hide that, although it's men who are, you know, perpetrating it, violence is still seen as a women's issue, as the responsibility of women . . .
Joolya: fucking fucker fucks. and they WONDER why women get cross about the door thing
Boomy:ha! he called you a virgin!
Joolya: that is super funny
Boomy: he was all "virgin! bviirgin! if you're a feminist than it must be that no one will have sex with you!"
Joolya: that is why i only fuck other feminists
Joolya: VD (who seems not to have noticed that his initials stand for venereal disease) non-sequits the following:
Joolya: [Quotes from evil blog thread] Joolya wrote: “You are a sick, sick man, VD. This is not a case of breach of contract. It's really disturbing that you seem to view sex and relationships in this manner. If you consented to, I don't know, drive someone home but on the way to their house they started vandalizing your car or pissing you off, would you then say that you had no right to kick them our of your car?”
Yawn. Again with the inability to distinguish between legality and morality. No wonder you can't distinguish between rape and sex. Your analogy is a poor one. If I consented to drive you home, but I then stop in the middle of nowhere and tell you to get out simply because I don't feel like driving you anymore, I would certainly think that I have done you wrong. I haven't broken any laws, and certainly the right thing to do would be to get out of the car and go, but there is no shortage of individuals who would simply refuse to get out of the car, without the aforementioned shrieking and defecating.
Joolya: My point was that the rapist is the guy who won't leave the car which is then trespassing and therefor a crime - I can't actually tell what his point is in response. Can you?
Boomy: yeah. so he would kind of be being a bad host for kicking his passenger out of the car midway through, but still within his legal rights, and well, the passenger would then have to leave
Boomy: yeah i read that whole exchange
Boomy: i liked the pooping in your car while you sit there and watch analogy
Joolya: but then he seems to agree with me?
Boomy: and the rider would be understood for just staying in the car until he was home
Joolya: sure, which is the weakness of my analogy.
Boomy: no it's not. it was a fine analogy
Joolya: i didn't mean to imply that the woman who kicks the dick out is in the wrong
Boomy: it's just his trying to say that the kicker-outer from cars and vaginas is to blame for the actions of the kicked
Joolya: legally, the rider has no right to the ride.
Joolya: right. but he was like, the dick has the legal right (not the moral right) to remain in the vagina, whereas the rider has the moral (not the legal) right to stay in the car. so he is wrong and agrees with me about the car but not the vagina. because he is an asshole.
Boomy: yeah these people are assholes
Boomy: totally
Boomy: how scary is "scintan"?
Boomy: he is definitely mixing metaphors.
Boomy: if you are going to say: "occasionally there are cases where women are responsible for the hurt feelings of men whom they have asked to refrain from or cease fucking them" then fine.
Boomy: if you are going to say that they are legally responsible for the crime that results from the man's actions...
Boomy: another story
Boomy: i wonder how they feel about man-on-man rape
Boomy: hey you know what you should do?
Joolya: what?
Boomy: you totally need to write a rebuttal on YOUR blog
Joolya: yeah.
Joolya: so there, venereal disease
Boomy: a well reasoned chat about how you got pulled in to this ridiculous rabbit warren
Boomy: and what you found there
Boomy: and what right-minded people should do in response
Joolya: good idea. and how to avoid being trapped like that again. e.g. don't walk home alone after dark or wear tight clothes.
Boomy: guys in the divorced mens support groups though
Boomy: makes vox look progressive
Joolya: wow. maybe i don't want to!!!
Boomy: my friends who are divorce laywers get contacts from them a lot. they are kind of like the male-bonding wilderness crazies
Boomy: and the overwhelming message is that women are worthless liars
Joolya: well, shit, aren't they?
Joolya: according to vox, brian, scintan, and possibly nate we are!
Joolya: what do your friends think of them?
Boomy: they HATE them
Boomy: because they do have a teeny tiny kernal of truth to them
Joolya: i'm sure some of them do. there's a lot of nasty people in the world and some of them are women
Boomy: (ie, protective laws on the books in PA and in many states do not treat men and women equally)
Boomy: on the other hand, MEN AND WOMEN are NOT in EQUAL economic situations. EVER
Boomy: so this relatively tiny, bound issue in some laws rarely departs from the path the judges and lawyers would follow anyway
Joolya: talk about culture of victimhood, though, seriously.
Joolya: here is the ironic thing:
Joolya: these guys on this blog are all, Victimhood! Victimhood! WE MEN are the actual victims of your victimhood! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! GOTCHA VOX ET AL!
Joolya: and it's so only recently that women are being given equal treatment under the law anyway. they forget this
Joolya: it's so fucked up. let's play the game where we find-and-replace "men" with "chinese" and "women" with "korean"
Joolya: or whatever
Boomy: and there is nothing more dangerous than when those in power can claim minority, or victim, status
Joolya: LIKE THE CHRISTIAN RIGHT!!!!!!!
Boomy: exactly.
Joolya: dude, we have figured it all out
Boomy: or "christian libertarians"
Joolya: the ickiest
Boomy: or whatever vox claims to be
Joolya: gun totin Xtreme Xtians
Joolya: couldn't resist one last comment:
Joolya: VD:Let me paraphrase your arguments here.
The dick has the legal right (but not the moral right) to remain in the vagina, whereas the rider has the moral (but not the legal right) right to stay in the car. Whereas I maintain that both dick and passenger are legally obliged to exit car and vagina when requested to do so by the car or vagina owner or else they are (legally) trespassing.I
n no way did I mean to imply by my analogy that the dick who was asked to leave was hard done by.
You are such a doofus.
Joolya: i'm seriously done now. done done done
Joolya: seriously
Boomy: cut it off.
Joolya: "and there is nothing more dangerous than when those in power can claim minority, or victim, status" that was very succinctly put.
Boomy: thanks :)
Boomy: be like the indian guy with the pillow at the end of cuckoos nest
Joolya: i have, i have
Joolya: can i throw a sink out the window? please?
Boomy: by all means
posted by Joolya at
4:25 PM
8 Comments:
A new ruling class is emerging. There is a vast army of feminists whose tactics are to tempt men into bed with them, accuse them of rape and have them sent to jail. Men are being oppressed by militant feminist sirens, bent on world domination.
Barmy! What is it about the modern right-wing male that encourages such paranoia?
Joolya - What do you mean "admit their basic problem". Are you intending to imply that all men are rapists, or that men think rape is OK? That's certainly not the case. I'm not the one who turned relationships into Mortal Kombat.
springy - there is no paranoia in the "right wing male". The deck went from being stacked against women (where their accusations were regarded as hysterical ranting) to something of balance (where a rapist could actually be convicted), to stacked against men (an accusation of impropriety is sufficient to destroy a career).
Just because you are virtuous enough where you would never falsely accuse a man of rape does not mean that all women are equally virtuous.
I've been attacked without provocation too many times to trust that I know I am safe. Forgive me if I just assume that I'm better off avoiding women in public.
also, obviously, women are better off in this arrangement.
Wow, Brian, this has happened to you several times? Are you talking false accusations of rape?
I am in fact a heterosexual man; the possibility of being date-raped is low for me. Interesting that you would assume I am a woman, and perhaps indicative of a tendency to explain all human relations through the prism of gender/sexuality.
Basic problems: Wanting to control the sexuality of others (especially men of women - common historical theme); men considering power gains of women as a loss of power for the ruling class (moneyed white males); fear and distrust of opposite sex (both sexes); lack of empathy for/dehumanization of other humans (both sexes, but more damaging to women as men have more power in public domain).
Also, that one dude totally called you a doofus. WTF?
Also, if you've been "falsely" accused of rape "several" times, maybe the fault is not of the women.
I mean, take a look at the majority opinion, it might have some merit...
Not falsely accuse of rape. Falsely accused of every violation of women just short of rape. I've had two (that I am aware of) false accusations of sexual harrassment filed against me, one by someone with whom I had no contact whatsoever, one by someone who was put up to it so that a manager could fire me. If there were others made that were dismissed as the deranged ravings of a lunatic mind, I do not know.
But given the political environment, I cannot be certain that a false accusation of rape would not be forthcoming.
Well, given the actual climate, it's not surprising that a lot of women might be a leetle bit sensitive about men being more worried about the small number of false accusations than the extremely large number of unreported rapes, and the cultural climate that perpetuates this.
Post a Comment
Subscribe to Post Comments [Atom]
<< Home